where will i find these elusive little devils?

I still think you need to do something with the SD class itself. You can STILL create a stealth SD WITHOUT stealth augs and have between 3-7 vis with just gear alone. I can see being stealthy for seer and sniper without stealth augs is fine but if SD's want stealth it should require an aug to do so since the class is built to run as a defense and not to do 600-700 speed and disappear. I think a class vis boost should still be added that way if you want stealth you need an aug. BALANCE THE CLASS!!!!!!

..or maybe rebalance ehm backbalance the ship vis ;D dunno exactly why or when you droped DS vis form 20 to 4 but i dont get why my passiv radar now creates more vis then my ship does ;D

My thoughts on this change after dging with my gunner.

I'm in an izer+ with a ath+, using amplified red nose reindeer because it had elec bonus (which I understand is being replaced so thats fine)

I used to see mf reavers at 500 distance, now at around 50.

I cant even detect ai vultures at 2k distance.. Which makes it utterly impossible to kill them as they need to be kited in dg's or they group up and spam 8000 bulets at you and you die...

Please fix something.. It shouldn't be like this when I have a radar aug on...

It almost seems as though radar augs do not effect detection at all?

EDIT: Calculations...
Radar: 3200 detection, +20% detection mod
+20% from fleet focus
+134% from augs (goes to +268% with AT)
VUlture reflectivity 25%..
3200*1.2*1.2*3.68=16957
23040*0.25=4239
So I should detect vultures at 4239 if radar augs effect detction.
Now lets see if they dont..
4239/3.68=1152
Hmm.. I couldnt detect them at 2000, I could at around 1500 but they were firing by then. Plausible that my dtection distance is indeed 1152
Thus, it seems, detction is NOT effected by radar augs.

Why is this the case?

or they use 1 stealthy aug. 1 is defintly enough with their inbuild AT to drop the vis by factor 4-5 easyly .. you scanned (ok that wont help on t20 augs) or tried several vultures ?

DG level of 6 vultures was where I was testing this..

He's right on the vultures. I am radar augged and still need to tweak if I want to get more then a glimpse. Now I need to fire from within 1k.

>Spatzz

I just spent two hours testing radars, reflectivity, radar augs, and radar mods, and it all seems to work correctly, though there was a display error in the radar stats for optical modifier. I tested my ability to see a vulture in a galaxy with no suns where I took away the vultures engine and weapons and just made him sit there and I saw and detected him at the correct distances with and without radar augs and with and without radar mods.

There was a client bug before the last patch where your client was thinking that the radar augs don't increase detection, but that was fixed in the last patch.

What about classes without stealth bonus' using ships witithout stealth augs (SD using low vis gear with a cloak) still getting 3-7 vis. Any plans on adding vis to the SD class? It is still out of wack when a stealth aug is not needed to be stealthy. Any plans on fixing this?

Thanks for the reply, I suppose I was mistaken in my calculations.. Maybe vultures always have inbuilt exc stealths or something.

Let me break this down.

First, there was a nerf to stealth SDs. Yes, nerf them good. But wait... the only way we could see low vis SDs in the past was via "pinging", wasn't this removed? Indeed, it was. A nerf + a beef all in one, which has caused numerous people to change their setups numerous times. I am getting tired of this...

Now this is all just based on testing...there may be errors...
Mac, here is what you did not realize with the recent changes. It does not matter how low vis an SD is, their visibility and detection are completely separate matters now. If you have a visibility of 1, and I have a visibility of 500 - we still have the same reflectivity (given we're both flying panthers and we're both using the same cloak). With the visibility of 1, you really have to focus on "Detection", with a visibility of 500 (depending on the power of your radar), your ship may be so visible that detection doesn't matter, it overrides this. The only way to modify this is via an -visibility augmenter. So the strength of these augmenters have really been solidified. There IS now a need to aug for stealth if you so desire this trait (IMO, given you know how to fight people who AREN'T truly augged for stealth. It is a much different game when someone actually has very low reflectivity and vis)

Pre-cloak/vis changes, people always complained about how stealth SDs were broken. Right, if they are broken...how did I fight Neuraxis? How did Denoan and I fight? How did many other stealth based SD's fight each other? Perhaps they used their brains and developed a method?

Here is MY problem with players giving input. The number of idiots on the forums is greater then the number of qualified players to speak on the matter. People keep bitching and complaining and they get systems changed.

If you cannot kill someone, then make adaptations. Your ability to adapt, fight smart, use the tools you have to the best of your abilities will determine how great of a fighter you are. I've tried to make changes as best as I could, other people have done it, we all need to do it to get past the changes and move on.


The idea that I have to break this down for you and to explain every little tactic, every strategy, in order to show you that the system is not unfair is a stupid one. You don't know how to make adjustments, so I have to show you how to make them (to prove that it's do-able) in order to prevent another nerf that was never required? You don't understand how the system works (play with it? experiment? test?) so we have to do hours of testing and try to figure it out, make our best guess and then inform you?

See..the thing is..

Stealth SD was NOT broken before these changes.

But people crying about it have got it changed to something worse.

Before atleast you could see stealth SDs using various tactics, now even with athena+ they dissapear at a way lesser distance.

I think the problem with pinging before was that you could see Snipers and Seers with way too much ease, maybe thats why it was fixed, but this fix has honestly given stealth SD a huge power.

Also, on a side note, as Denoan pointed out, beef the vision on radars. That way people with high vis, like stealth SDs, will be seen at a significant range and those with low , like seers or snipers, will not. Even if you see a stealth SD at 1k range, then there is hardly any time to take action and he ends up getting hits on you.

Personally, I found stealth SD just fine before these changes.

These changes also cause a lot of augmenter changes because you will have to change your setups to adapt. I have like 6 or 7 aug resets left, but still, an additional AUG RESET should be provided for this.

WE USE STEALTH CUS WE CAN'T REGEN OUR SHIELDS, OUR ENERGYBANKS SUCK, OUR ENGINES ARE WEAKER ETC

everything low vis sucks vs pvai
We setup ourselves purely for fighting and aug ourselves accordingly. I demand an aug reset first of all. Secondly, we get killed by people who invest money into pvp setups (non SD) so why are we so broken?
Slaves can see the detection might I add without looking at the mini map^^

And also, anyone with a panther can stealth if they use low vis gear. If others were smarter, they could stealth too I'm pretty sure, but we'd all be seen in detection mini map^^

Why do you demand an ADDITIONAL aug reset? The admins very graciously gave us quite a few at one point for times like these. It is in no way their fault or problem that you decided to use them for other purposes.

Hmm funny how my panther is only detectable at 50 distance to SD's with Athena+ augs without any Stealth augs and just using low to no vis gear. So Love maybe before you start trying to rip me you may want to get your shit straight. The problem lies in the fact that panthers and emp rays have become more and more common. Sitting stealthy waiting for a tweak to come in and blasting people with insane DPS without them being able to react and then run away at 600-700 speed undetectable ruins the game, the skill, and a balance between all other classes. The point of the matter is SD should not be stealthed and if they are stealthed it should hamper them badly by loosing a better aug for SD and use a lesser aug that add stealth. So love you shitbag don't lecture me about the game. SD was never ment to be a stealthy class nevermind one of the Highest DPS classes as well. Sitting waiting for a TWEAK undetected and then hitting the space bar should not be considered a skill and now that panthers are the most common SD ship now it needs to be fixed.