I would say that being invisible is just about as invulnerable as flying 10k away from your enemy where they cant follow.

But if your objection is simply being invisible then I suggest that stealth and invisibility is an inpractical defense for a class and something else should be used that is actually usefull in combat but not broken.
The path that it seems the devs is going down is one where stealth ships arent, unless they are not in combat at all.

Perhaps invisibility should not be a part of combat at all seeing as there is so much objection to 'invisibile' combatants and it should be left for non-combat perpouses, scouting and the like. And use something different for the defensive abilities of seer and sniper. like a miss percentage imposed by cloaks and low vis.

I still feel that the speed demon ability to just out distance anyone else in no time flat is equivalent to Seers ability to go invisible.

Thats 110% true. Probably speed is ever better in fact, because a SD can run away and completely avoid damage, while a sniper or a seer stays closer and is VERY vulnerable to the "Spray and Pray" method. Stealth is more weak to tractors, because they cant thrust or risk being seen, and they cant not thrust or they'll die in short order. SD's can at least run out beyond the other persons range, and then possibly even break their tractor hold just by thrusting. Stealth cant do that, either.

Stealthers and seers are not a problem generally they cannot attack without being severely damaged by anyone with a degree of reaction skills or tracking and radar augged slaves etc. can quite easily see the most stealthy from a fair distance.

SDs are a problem however, they can outrun anything that isn't a laser and outrange most setups running away to regen whenever you do manage to score a hit.

dont nerf seers etc. they're already fragile enough.

and i'm speaking as someone who's fought seers and played as a seer, i can defeat seer setups that cost much more than my own slaves without much of a problem.

I see your point about SDs, but the SD can't stay 10k away forever. He has low shields too, and he is vulnerable to fire when he gets close enough to do any damage. If firing vis gets taken away, the seer would be invulnerable all the time. It is a tough problem. Maybe a resist boost in the sniper seer skills would help?

when did i say anything about taking firing vis away, when did jeff say that either for that matter.

Jeff said he wanted to make a variable firing vis feature not take it away, and i'm totally for a variable firing vis dependant on weapon class ship etc.

That's actually a damn good idea.

Yes but when invisible after a short firing vis spike a zerker, or other class with a weapon that covers an area can still hit and kill the seer with collision code, especially since the seer has to be so damn close to take the shot in the first place.

Yes the seers have a nifty teleportation device however it has a miss chance, cool down time, and you must have something other than the enemy targeted to teleport toward then when at a safe distance and invisible you must re-aquire the target which hopefully has not fled or popped some shield tweaks, then get to the target which takes much more time than for a SD, and line up for another shot.

And while only missiles, torpedoes, and other seeking weapons have a problem with seers the only weapon that works on SD is the laser or grem cannon used with another weapon, even then you have to get lucky for the grem to hit as slow as it is.

of the two I conclude that the Seer is the more vulnerable and less effective in pvp and pve. So imho why increase the time of vulnerability and claim you are balancing the class?

If the system changes as the devs proposed (a sliding scale of vis dependent on pixle range and radar strength) where a good radar -of which many are readily avalible for players through out the game- can effectively eliminate the main defensive mechanism of a class then why not give everyone a aura that can slow down the SD in the area?

If you are going to do this sliding scale stuff, Seers will be pissed, and rightly so. So imho you will have few options; make good radars very few and far between or only certain classes get bonuses to radar and therefore hunt seers, use a different system as the main defense of two classes, or nerf other classes.

Conceptually I like the Idea of the sliding vis scale and the variable weapon vis scores, however mechanically it screws too much with 1/4 the classes in the game.

I do not want to see the devs nerf things as a balancing force, that just spreads the frustration.

I would like to see a game where each class is equally desirable, and that is why I give my input.

god I talked a long time....

Having firing beneficially affect stealth is not a good idea. Right now, Stealthy SD's make better seers than seers.

Proposal-

Shooting gives +X vis for Y seconds, with Vis decaying down to normal level over Y. Ie, +100 vis for 5 seconds (to make math easy) means at trigger pull a ship's vis is at +100. at 1 second after trigger, vis is +80. after 3 seconds, vis is at +40. at 5 seconds after vis is at +0 again.

Each shot fired after the first resets the counter, but adds the firing vis. This penalizes stealthy RoF (snipers and seers aren't hurt by this) builds, but won't affect snipers and seers. Ie. Trigger pull 1 gives +100 vis, for 5 seconds. 1 second goes by, vis is now +80, if trigger is pulled again, +100 reset time counter to 5, so total is +180 vis, 5 seconds to go. 1 second goes by, vis is now +144, trigger pulled again, we're not at vis +224.

Seers and Snipers should have skills that decrease the firing timer, so that they still get the +vis, but the interval to shed it is lower. And special weapons that give less +vis, or less timer.

Stealth augs should not have an affect on firing vis. If you open up, you should be seen, clearly, and have people be able to shoot back, otherwise it's to much of a win.

That idea/\ is Pure Win! Ofc the vis would be higher than what you said, but like you said, that was just for simplicity. I love it!

altho i'm not sure it should be a straight addition, i think that it should add with diminishing returns that perhaps only allows for 10x the base firing vis as a maximum vis from firing. or whatever multiple works best.

Yeah, that also sounds good.

See jeff? Ask the players and you eventually get a good way to do things

I've already made it so the visibility from firing decays over time and it's great. Although it's not additive, firing again just resets you to max firing vis.