Seer Thesis by Bastamental

*Edit, Thanks to Timmeh, the collision code topic got tweaked a little. Both suggestions will be posted next to each other.*

Announcement: A poll will be added in a few days, after most of the thoughts and ideas are brought together and edited to a reasonable conclusion in the topic below.


Be aware, not all of the statistical information is necessarily correct, as I am not experienced in all classes. Please ignore anything of that nature.

I would like to begin by welcoming everyone to this important topic. I’m sure that you will be satisfied with the amount of time and effort invested in this thesis. I would appreciate gratitude to be shown by staying on topic. Today’s area of concern will be discussing seer and its future. As you all know, seer has fallen behind in the balancing books. As classes, ideas, gear and content gets added, it's only logical to assume less effort to be allocated toward producing content for a less “popular” class.

Now, given that the majority is in full agreement that seer does need a beef of some kind, there are some strong propositions to be made. I am here to make a lengthy approach that will require everyone to take the time to think outside of your given class. Because, the main problem is, there is a good bunch of you that will have your classes changed in some small for. Following, being bias is the most immature way of confronting a debate, if you disagree, please give a fully explained reason for the disagreement and we can discuss. To start, we must accept that there must be classes that seers should be able to dominate without too much problems. Its part of the balance of classes. So, I will arrange which class beats which in order to better understand the roots of my logic. Also, keep in mind that there will be errors in some aspects, especially pertaining to class related knowledge that I am not particularly familiar with. Pointing out small errors as such will be considered derailment in my eyes, and I will try get as much moderation in this topic as possible, in order to have a smooth debate. Also keep in mind that I am banned and will most likely will be absent from the conversation unless a severe comment is needed to be said. Then I will ask whoever is posting to kindly answer in my stead.

Snipers - Always on top, generally because they can range just about every class and generally out DPS others. While Engineers being of the few worthy of battle. They easily dominate FCs, Gunners, Speed Demons, Shield Monkeys and Zerkers, but there major weakness is seers. With great power comes a big weakness, seer does just that. The reason seers wins, is because they are combating the very opposite style of damage they deal. Seers being DPH, snipers DPS. Now, DPS setups usually dominate, but without a target to say around, it hurts there class greatly. Making seers the necessary class to dominate snipers at all times. Snipers, being one of the major roles of the topic will be discussed later.

Zerkers - Tanky, solid DPS and hostile. This class is known to be a solid couple when grouped with a shield monkey. Yet, when alone, in that rare occasion can defeat FCs, Gunners and
Shield Monkeys. There weakness is engineers and seers.

Gunners - Well, lets just say they need work. They are weak most classes.

FCs - Again, need work. They are weak to most classes. Yugioh exempt ofc.

Engineers - A powerful class. Lets face it, this class is amazing. They can out DPS, out smart and tank most classes. There is no end to the tactics an Engineer could use. From grem cannons, to armada infernos, to the all seeing BFDs. They have no weaknesses. They especially dominate seers, there is practically no way a seer can win a Engineer, which is great. With a great PvP class comes a severe weakness like engineers. Again, fully comfortable with balance. Engineer is one of the classes to be discussed in the main idea plot preceding.

Shield Monkeys - Need I explain?

Speed Demons - Fast, agile, burst DPS. Lets just say its an amazing class, not many other classes offer your main ship to also be your travel ship. Can combat anything fairly decently, all varies on weapon, augmenters, and most importantly, technique. Weakest to engineers.

Seers - You know that you have a fun class when you need to tell your opponent were your general location is, just to find each other. They exceed in stealth, radar and critical hits. As shown above, can combat any class other than engineers with a positive class advantage. It sees all and hides from all, and when he/she desires to strike, it is with great precision. There mortal weakness is engineers. Seers are so weak to them in fact, that a set of well augmented acme or titan drones can handle most seers.


Now, before I pass on my suggestion, I would like to explain a little bit of the nature of seer a little further. To start, seer is the greatest example of how DPS doesn’t necessarily matter. With a setup of 3 Seer Mast , A+ or similar variants, in a DPS calculator, it only comes up to about 1.4k DPS. That is staggeringly horrible in the eyes of any class, yet it has the potential power to kill many foes. On the other hand, with a more sophisticated, expensive setup such as 2 AoS, CaP, A+, the DPS can range from 15k-17k DPS, yet no means of supporting DPS. Not for electric reasons, but for real life tactical reasons, such as generally lower shield bank. This can be the greatest and sometimes painful beautys of seers. It is the most effected class by real life situations and scenarios. But, with various different problems in the games aspect, a lot of its potential is null. Hence why I am writing this thesis to assess, discuss and hopefully move forward towards balancing seers in accordance with the other classes.

So after all that being said, it is not the stats, augmenters,equipment or debuffs that seer is lacking. What we need to work on, is modifying different classes and coding to work around what is preventing seers from doing such said actions and/or dampen such potential.

One of the greatest examples of seer's true power was from Klestiko. Back in the day, there were certain items, equipment and codes that didn’t exist during the time. This allowed Klestiko to be great, it showed the potential of seers previously written. But what was it? What changed since then?

The answer is 3 major things were added, Spotty beams [Medium], Collision Code [Major], and Engineer’s vision [Minor].

Lets start with the most minor of the suggestions. Engineers radars are in no way a problem, just a strong annoyance. The problem right now is pinging and the handicap of using an engine freely without being spotted. With any BFDs laid, or a sup radar controller equiped, it is impossible to ping without being spotted and shot down. Now, considering that a seer with an Athena+ augmenter can see a pinged panther from about 150distance max would imply that those drones have some incredibly powerful radars to see from distances up to 800+. My suggestion is to have mutual radars stats as the engineer has. Meaning that if an engineer has a ande radar equipped, so does the drone. Of course the drone's vision would be still augmented by the drone controllers and drone operation augmenters on the engineers ship. In the end, a seer can ping and use engine in peace, while still suffering the consequences if he dares to attack the engineer.

Second issue, Sniper's Spotty Beam. This is far more serious than it seems. In a fighting situation, a sniper would only need 1 shot from this spotty beam to make the fight virtually over. Since the range is so far, about 2.5k average. It is impossible to warp away from the effect of the beam. In fact, since the range and angle of fire is much less at a distance of 1k [If warped], it would make the job simpler for a sniper to hit you, given that its tracking isn’t that great. Also adding, that a sniper can easily kill you with just his spotty. The main problem with seer, is that it isn’t made to stick out “like a sore thumb”. In fact 1 shot counters the entire essence of an entire class, which in no means can ever be balanced. An average seer has about 23k shields with nice augmenters, 57k if he uses a basil sheath, that is less than half of an average sniper's shields. Also given that seer is designed to be snipers mortal enemy, it makes it too easy for a sniper to be the winner, therefore defeating to purpose of a “mortal enemy”. Now, it has been discussed many times to reduce its weapons visibility effect or how long the effect lasts. Yet, the idea is void, because the weapons recoil with a decent augmenter setup is less that 1 second recoil. Meaning that no amount of stat nerfing would be sufficient to counter such effects. There was a suggestion of removing the weapon entirety, but what about its usefulness in PvAI were it was intended to be used? There is 1 simple solution to this problem, and that is to make the effect non light fighter sticky. So, no matter how much you shoot a light fighter with it, the effect wont stick. What does this mean? It means seers are safe and PvAI activity is no longer a problem area. Given that every AI boss is either a heavy fighter or freighter. The only 2 light fighter bosses in game are: Dark Curse and Ares, both incredibly high visibility. Not only will this fix the balance problem, but it will remove spotty slaves from the equation, which are immensely broken in sniper vs seer combat. Also adding, snipers still have a chance of winning if a beam or HGG gun was used. There is hope, its just not so simple.


Finally, the most important, crucial topic, collision code.



OR




In the end, the result would return seers back to the balanced days. Ofc not entirely but its a very firm start.


And of course,
/discuss

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Comment/Answer Post

*Edit, adding to the topic, will update frequently*

Index:
Q= Question/Opinion Stated
A= My answer to such said statement.
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Q1:

A1:Very Very OP. It couldn't possible be balanced.

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Q2:

A2:

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Q3:

A3: With an average speed of 130-165, dodging/reaction time is impossible, even with pulse weapons. Only takes an average of 2-4 shots to kill a seer. 2 shots being an eclipse, 4 being a bsheath. Also might I add that a good % of kits are beam only.

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Q4:

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A4 Part 1:

No class should be able to see a class that isn't intending to be visible. [Shooting for example, or tractoring]

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A4 Part 2:

Your absolutely right. Seers will never beat a prepared an Engineer under any reasonable situation. The suggestion is only intended for the freedom of movement/recon such as pinging or using an engine to the full extent needed. Also, for reasons stated above.

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A4 Part 3:

As stated in the thesis, the nature of damage from 1 class to another is the complete opposite [In common cases]. DPS and DPH and seer is what comes on top. Furthermore, this weapon prevents that and defeats the purpose of balance. In conclusion, Snipers should always have a disadvantage.

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A4 Part 4:

Agreed. But lets face it, it wont happen. But, then again, its all up the admins isn't it? If we have a healthy discussion, whatever they see fit should be in alignment with reason.

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A4: Part 5:

A4: This is by far the best reason I wrote this paper. If any code like this is added, it should be in the 80-90% range. Given that there are countless RoF setups out there. Also, SDs have the tendency to use this cc the most.

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A5 Part 6:

Couldn't agree more. In fact, this is most likely going to be the kicker! Since 90% of any weapon shot at a seer for cc use is a beam! You've done it my good sir! I will work on tweaking the topic.

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Q6:

A6:Drone controllers and Drone ops augs weren't around in Kles's time. Therefore Engineers were much weaker in every aspect.

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Q7:

A7:This is a bug that is caused from the + velocity added from sniper class. We should all be dead in theory.

/unsigned *reason: Basta failed to complete his bribing to get me to sign this post*

I dont think it's quite fair for them to be completely invincible to collision code while below 1 vis, but it's also not fair for them to get hit by every bullet.

How about 95% chance to dodge bullets from players, and 100% chance to dodge bullets from bases? That means that players can still spam bullets, but they will hit very rarely.

I love it.

I think 95% is a little to high. 75% sounds more reasonable.

You forget how often these classes shoot. They can be shooting at ROF cap with 5 weapons, resulting in 50 shots per second...that means they could be getting hit at least once per second, revealing their location. That's plenty, honestly.

if a zerker is going max rof cap he is obviously doing no damage.

Doesn't matter much versus a seer, since they've got such low shields. And, for example, a single hot glue gun shot will kill a seer.

then that is the seers fault building purly a Glass cannon setup?

Except that's the fundamental basis of a seer. Their defense is their stealth...but bullet spamming+CCode nullifies it. Which is why we're suggesting this in the first place, y'know?

It even makes sense from the lore perspective; a seer can see into the future, so they know where the bullets are, and they dodge the bullets.

its not that hard to get a seer around 40~50k shields and still do a ton of dmg. its just every seer is stuck to the idea of AoS's ftw!

Meh, clearly my comments aren't helping. Just go back and read what he said in the original post, he said it better than I did.

Regardless, seers shouldn't be invincible just by being invisible. I think a 50% chance to dodge is a lot more appropriate. Having a near invincible stealth class poses a lot of issues for PvB/BvB balance.