I think it holds up. With no augs whatsoever, you have EFD with 5% more effective max shields, but ZT with 32.8% more effective regen versus mining. 50% more speed, 32.8% more effective regen versus mining, smaller, thrust and turning bonuses, 100 bonus elec. Also, better resists give you more effective incoming healing, as well. 32.8% more effective healing is worth something for sure.

I don't have anything against making the inbuilt items better. I do think that's probably a good idea.

Where is that shield statistic coming from? As far as I can tell, the Zeus Throne has 12% less effective shield bank(unless you're accounting for some factor I haven't seen? I'd be happy to incorporate it, if you pointed it out). Secondly, regen is globally so low that no matter what shield you use as to be a negligible factor(other than waiting between levels) but that's not even good enough to be considered a bonus; more a small perk.

Speed is also of limited use; it allows you to dodge, yes, but even with 50% more speed, you're still going to be lucky if you dodge 20% additional incoming fire. At best, that brings you up to roughly par 'effective shields', at greater effort from the user. And it lets you get around faster, which is again more a small perk, not something game-changing.

Add to that the hull space lost from not having an inbuilt capital engine(a lion thruster would work, albeit not as well as a capital engine), bringing the ships effective hull down to about 600.

So, to sum up: It has less hull, tanks roughly the same, and gets around faster.

I just can't see how this comes out to an 88% increase in power.

Let's not forget that if you are trying to dodge things while firing missiles, you're going to need to be rather farther away from your enemies, which reduces your missile DPS. I've run some setups for ZT using ACALs and was not at all impressed by the DPS it can get without missiles.

Honestly, I don't particularly care about the ZT insofar as stats go(I'm never going to get one, anyway); what I care about is the power factor. Somehow Jeff has decided that The ZT is 88% better than a dreadnaught, and that really worries me. I mean, If he said it was a 10% improvement, maybe even a 20% improvement, I could roll with that, but 88%? That's ridiculous. And it holds bad portents for balancing other capships in the future.

What happened to linear increase in power...

I would like to point out that Gunner really has 0 "really cool shit" for capships. ACALs are at best 25% better than KMWs? and Capship launchers 33% better than HF launchers? I really don't think that makes up for other ships having 50-100% more aug slots. If that's your balance criteria then that's why your balance sheets are broken.

With Thermal on this one. Ooh and make t 21 auras.

Because you're saying every way in which it's better doesn't matter. If these things don't matter for you, then don't use a ZT.

So what I was going for with ZT, since it is so expensive, was a small linear increase in power in the more important ways, but then big increases in power in less important ways for that ship type as payoff for the expensive build.

Overall, cap ships are purposely quite underpowered compared to other ship classes for a couple reasons, some of which I think I've talked about above. The plan was to start bringing them back to parity with T21, but mostly in ways to minimize a huge step up in raw DPS or raw defense.

The other thing not to forget is that in theory, 2 T21 augs gives a bit of increase in power over a ship with 2 T20 augs all in itself, even if every stat is the same except for tech level, not to mention field gens and other tech locked stuff when we add them.

Here's the thing, Jeff; if most people do not see it as a significant increase, then it doesn't mean they're wrong, it means the balance sheets are wrong. The majority is always sane.

However, I have no personal investment in this, nor do I intend to. There are certainly people who are going to be happy to build it, or even the ZT+, just for looks, and if this ship is good enough for them, then I'm happy for them.

If I were a Dev, I would care. But I'm not. So make of that what you will.

"Most people" doesn't qualify as 1 person in the thread arguing against stats because the buffed stats aren't the ones that he sees as the most valuable.

Jeff has already stated that speed is a pretty heavily weighted stat, and I agree with that sentiment. Speed can make or break a useful setup, unless you are just going to sit there as a giant meat-shield; which is not the natural play-style for a gunner anyways.

The higher the base stat, the more it can be improved in most scenarios.

yes.. I would have to say that the balance sheets do not apply correctly..

The proof is in the prints. According to other admins there are only 4ZTs in game atm. people dont really want to build them because there is not the same playability.



So to summarize, Its an expensive and moderately shiny travel ship just now. But eventually you want to add shiny objects that make it useful?

Because from where I am standing as someone who uses one on an almost daily basis It doesn't compare in any way with other Oly ships..they are able to do content I couldn't even begin to and it is a little frustrating.

It is an Oly ship..I was seriously expecting a lot more from it when I built it and to find that it is crippled compared to the other oly ships is pretty distressing. And yes..It will be compared to the other Oly ships since it is the "zeus throne" obtainable from that area...common sense dictates I must compare it.


Is it so wrong to ask that it be tweaked a wee bit? Its expensive to build compared to the Heph machine and if your talking about OP that is THE most OP ship in game right now and it is dirt cheap compared to the ZT. Calling a ZT OP is downright silly, I can do some more than i could in a dread though I preferred to use my assault behe because I had the aug slots that actually let me do damage, Or heal my slaves more effectively.

Tell me how your balance sheets justify the HM having 4 aug slots and broken as hell stats and the ZT has 2 aug slots and almost no difference in damage potential between the Dread and ZT.

Here another symptom that might help look at things from a different perspective.

Gunner is ballanced for Solo PvE. Non uber, pure DGing

Gunner is FailTastic in PvP. Does not include what it does in Base Assaults.

Anyone who has seen my zebra with its Hera+ knows why I have it. TO RUN.
I have ZERO chance of winning any battle with a non Gunner as Gunner. I will mop the floor with 99% of gunners as gunners. But against other classes, your best option is to run.

Reverse analyze that and it may point you where the "logic" of the calculation have gone off. I do not doubt your calculations are correct Jeff, I just disagree with you in what they actually represent with respect to Gunner and the way that they are implemented.

It isnt just gunners that are effected. My FC is in a ZT simply because I have hit a wall..There is very little I can do to improve my class.. I can gear my slaves with Oly gear. Eventually as I can afford it. But my playing style is not simply "sit and heal slaves" I try to use my ship to do added damage to my foes as well and battle actively with weapons of my own.

You cannot use slaves over T18 and the rest of the game is progressing past T20 now. I am not saying slaves are underpowered in the least. But I was counting on more of an improvement to the capital ships this class relies on to try and further advance my achievements and continue on the path to my goals.

Is there any room for tweaks In the ZT to make it more usable by both the FC and Gunner communities Jeff?