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Issues with torpedoes
http://www.starsonata.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=46848		 Page 7 of 10
Author:  shawn_mccall [ Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with torpedoes
Enkelin is one of the best SDs ingame and voiced a negative opinion...

Also, when someone doesn't voice an opinion it's typically lack of interest meaning they don't really want it(I would love it though since it would be an even-more-instant-win card against SD for my Eng since they now get to plow right through whatever my drones throw at them if they want to hit).

Honestly, the idea is obviously abhorrable for the SD class you are taking a class based around hyper agility and making them fly in straight lines. That's kind of like making the finish line in a race out of a ten foot high brick wall, all you're going to do is run them into a giant wall of death.
Author:  anilv [ Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with torpedoes
Honestly? Quit trollin. I have given my opinion on your idea at least three times now, and not just that I don't like it but why. It's not like I'm bitching because my Emp Ray doesn't have full tracking or my Merc Mag doesn't have enough range; anyone will tell you that 3-shot takes a lot of skill to use well on SD, and the new torp code has made it infuriatingly so against this one AI. There is absolutely no reason why the mechanic should be changed if its main effect is to mess up that aspect of gameplay.

If you actually want to know why your idea doesn't fit with my understanding of SD, forum pm me and we'll discuss. I see no reason to dilute my presence in this thread further with that matter.
Author:  Cygnus [ Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with torpedoes
shawn_mccall wrote:
Enkelin is one of the best SDs ingame and voiced a negative opinion...

Also, when someone doesn't voice an opinion it's typically lack of interest meaning they don't really want it(I would love it though since it would be an even-more-instant-win card against SD for my Eng since they now get to plow right through whatever my drones throw at them if they want to hit).

Honestly, the idea is obviously abhorrable for the SD class you are taking a class based around hyper agility and making them fly in straight lines. That's kind of like making the finish line in a race out of a ten foot high brick wall, all you're going to do is run them into a giant wall of death.


I have no idea what you're talking about. I DON'T want them flying in a straight line, i want exactly the opposite...

But anyway, since you clearly don't know what i'm talking about and Enk possibly does, i sent him a PM and that should be good.


Returning to the topic at hand, before this change it was almost impossible to hit a SD at close range with a torp-type weapon if they were even marginally skilled. If that has been amended at all, i can't help but agree with it, even if it means that SD's will have to adjust tactics to compensate for it. If it's undodgable then it's different, but since SD's can fly faster than torps I can't believe that it would be that way.

EDIT: Allow me to step aside and say...Ye gods, you're all idiots. I went back and read my original suggestion, and i'm amazed at the ways you managed to completely ignore the basis of my suggestion, alter it to ways that were stupidly broken, and THEN you actually had the gall to COMPLAIN about YOUR tweaked version being broken!

/headdesk /headdesk /headdesk
Author:  shawn_mccall [ Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with torpedoes
A pulse will *never* be as high tracking as other weapons. So, unless you intend to add so much tracking that they become Mags instead then it does require the user to run up the proverbial barrel of their opponent to hit. It doesn't matter if they turn off 1k or even 1.5k away it does not matter as they will already be dead.

So, either you want to beef their tracking for SDs so much they become mags(in which case it's simpler to just beef their damage and projectile speed on mags), or you really like straight lines. I played as SD up to level 2.4k on my main before I got bored of the class. I know how it works.
Author:  Cygnus [ Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with torpedoes
shawn_mccall wrote:
A pulse will *never* be as high tracking as other weapons. So, unless you intend to add so much tracking that they become Mags instead then it does require the user to run up the proverbial barrel of their opponent to hit. It doesn't matter if they turn off 1k or even 1.5k away it does not matter as they will already be dead.

So, either you want to beef their tracking for SDs so much they become mags(in which case it's simpler to just beef their damage and projectile speed on mags), or you really like straight lines. I played as SD up to level 2.4k on my main before I got bored of the class. I know how it works.



Because I'm feeling nice, i'll say it again; I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT TRACKING. Everyone else seems to THINK that i said that, but I Didn't!

Pulse Speed, people. Speed. Like snipers. Speed. Not tracking. In fact, increasing pulse speed reduces tracking.

Not all SD combat is hitting your enemy with a wave of bullets from outside their range...
Author:  shawn_mccall [ Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with torpedoes
Cygnus wrote:
shawn_mccall wrote:
A pulse will *never* be as high tracking as other weapons. So, unless you intend to add so much tracking that they become Mags instead then it does require the user to run up the proverbial barrel of their opponent to hit. It doesn't matter if they turn off 1k or even 1.5k away it does not matter as they will already be dead.

So, either you want to beef their tracking for SDs so much they become mags(in which case it's simpler to just beef their damage and projectile speed on mags), or you really like straight lines. I played as SD up to level 2.4k on my main before I got bored of the class. I know how it works.



Because I'm feeling nice, i'll say it again; I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT TRACKING. Everyone else seems to THINK that i said that, but I Didn't!

Pulse Speed, people. Speed. Like snipers. Speed. Not tracking. In fact, increasing pulse speed reduces tracking.

Not all SD combat is hitting your enemy with a wave of bullets from outside their range...


Without a tracking bonus They do not have the same flexibility as they would with a beam, or even Mag. A beam weapon allows them to fly as erratically as they want to protect their comparatively meager shield bank. Without the tracking bonus they have to face the enemy at all times to continue DPSing it. This making circling(and other maneuvers) extremely hard(thanks to high RoF every turn wastes potential DPS) as you will have to make a lot of turns that deplete your otherwsie considerable DPS.

So yeah, speed is fine and all but it still is useless for all but your most suicidal SD unless you add tracking. Have you ever used an SD?
Author:  anilv [ Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with torpedoes
It's not hard to hit an SD with ZHT at close range if you ambush, and the crits will likely keep him stationary for your pew pews. If he can see you before you start firing... well maybe you should choose a different weapon? I don't see any reason why ZHT should excel at hitting small fast targets at close range; it was already quite dangerous in the middle distance due to low vis and high tracking and there are other weapons that fill that role (pretty much all non-torpedos).

As promised, not a word more from me on the subject of SD pulse speed. Stay focused!
Author:  Battlecruiser23 [ Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with torpedoes
Offtopic wrote:
If a pulse gun's bullet moves faster, it does somewhere of +30% damage at 400 speed, compared to 0 speed. This is not limited to SD's.

Either ymai or a Pancake SD used a merc pulse(back when it was a big motherfucker) for pvp on his SD. It beat the snot out of people. Most likely because SD's don't use pulses for pvp, therefore unable to comprehend and counter the setup, but the fact all the bullets piled up out of no where did some considerable damage.

And if you add Projectile Velocity, this SD gets even nastier!



I found the jiji to be a pretty dangerous weapon versing small fast players who attempt to stay close. They also tended to run like helro when mow warps in. No T21 ships.

So, yeah. Use a different weapon if a weapon isn't a jack-of-all-trades weapon. And if it is, it better be a high tier T21, or it's gonna get nerfed. Like when Engineers killed prince on a 2 energy, 1 shield astro with only 4 titan drones.
Author:  shawn_mccall [ Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with torpedoes
anilv wrote:
As promised, not a word more from me on the subject of SD pulse speed. Stay focused!



Yeah I was just putting out that last response, I'm back on topic now! :D

Anywho, atm Torps are visually displaying greater range than they have due to the change. They will fly right over my Rhino without hitting because their range is spent but the server still displays the graphic. Probably due to the speed increase.
Author:  anilv [ Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with torpedoes
shawn_mccall wrote:
anilv wrote:
As promised, not a word more from me on the subject of SD pulse speed. Stay focused!



Yeah I was just putting out that last response, I'm back on topic now! :D

Anywho, atm Torps are visually displaying greater range than they have due to the change. They will fly right over my Rhino without hitting because their range is spent but the server still displays the graphic. Probably due to the speed increase.


Aye, there's a visual bug as well but they do track from the start now, which is what this thread is about.
Author:  Chaosking3 [ Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with torpedoes
I personally want the whole code reverted to the old style. There was no reason for the change. Nothing more really needs to be said.
Author:  shawn_mccall [ Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with torpedoes
Chaosking3 wrote:
I personally want the whole code reverted to the old style. There was no reason for the change. Nothing more really needs to be said.


This fellow knows his shit.
Author:  Griffin [ Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with torpedoes
shawn_mccall wrote:
Chaosking3 wrote:
I personally want the whole code reverted to the old style. There was no reason for the change. Nothing more really needs to be said.


This fellow knows his shit.
Author:  anilv [ Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with torpedoes
Chaosking3 wrote:
I personally want the whole code reverted to the old style. There was no reason for the change. Nothing more really needs to be said.


Agreed. This change was originally presented as "oops, realized things weren't working as planned for years--how do people like it the new way?" I haven't seen much support for it and I like to think that there have been a number of arguments against.
Author:  Chaosking3 [ Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with torpedoes
Due to the fact that it was not implemented as a balance but rather a simple change I would propose it be voted on. If torpedos stay the way they are currently or revert to how they were previously I don't think any balancing issues would be effected so this should be a simple player decision.
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