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Team: Eminence Front
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Post Re: Issues with torpedoes
Ah, I read the idea wrong. It simply depends how it were implemented, if it only affected long range shots like Stygian Fists from BFDs, ZHTs from snipers and the such it is fine but I am not sure how you would code that without a hardcap to the total tracking distance. What I do not want to see if weapons like the MT which are an integral part of uber runs become even more difficult to use. It would be the same sort of catalyst that implementing smooth shield regen was, it made current content more difficult for no reason and no greater reward.

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Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:32 pm
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Post Re: Issues with torpedoes
Thanks for taking another look. Let me write out my proposal more clearly.

Old system:
Torpedo charges, flies in a straight line for a while, then tracks until its range is expended.
Problem: Very difficult (read: impossible) to dodge torpedoes at long range.

Current system:
Torpedo charges, tracks its target for a while, then flies in a straight line till expended.
Problem: Very difficult (read: impossible) to dodge torpedoes at close range.

Proposal:
Torpedo charges, flies in a straight line for a while (like the old system), tracks for a while (fraction of total range), then flies in a straight line till expended (like the new system).
Problem: no problem??

I'm envisioning that the tracking phase would be a fraction of the total range of the weapon. Purely as an example, suppose a Zerk gets 800 range on MT. Then maybe it would fly straight forward for 200 distance, track for 500 distance, and burn out in a straight line for the remaining 200. The actual proportions can of course be adjusted and I have no doubt that a good balance can be struck.

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Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:58 pm
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Post Re: Issues with torpedoes
I would prefer the old system but with something like a 1000 range hard cap on tracking which would fix incredibly long range undodgable torps. Your example is not bad with those suggested values but there is to much a chance that torp weapons will get screwed by a flawed line of code which won't be reverted.

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Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:27 pm
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Post Re: Issues with torpedoes
I considered the hard cap and am not against it. Lots of ways to tweak this idea and like I said, I'm quite sure it can be balanced nicely and solve all the OP tracking issues.

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Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:42 pm
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Post Re: Issues with torpedoes
JUST STOP YAPPING ABOUT IT AND REVERT THE STUPID CHANGE ALREADY >.<

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Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:12 am
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Post Re: Issues with torpedoes
Seems like there is a rift between long range torps and short range torps. Why not split them into 2 groups and have different behavior for each?

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Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:06 pm
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Post Re: Issues with torpedoes
Visorak wrote:
Seems like there is a rift between long range torps and short range torps. Why not split them into 2 groups and have different behavior for each?


Because a ship with lots or range bonuses will break them either way. This would also entail an arbitrary split in weapons. I dunno, it just seems like it would solve all the problems if we put in the 3-stage system so I don't see the point of trying anything more cumbersome.

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Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:50 pm
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Post Re: Issues with torpedoes
anilv wrote:
Visorak wrote:
Seems like there is a rift between long range torps and short range torps. Why not split them into 2 groups and have different behavior for each?


Because a ship with lots or range bonuses will break them either way. This would also entail an arbitrary split in weapons. I dunno, it just seems like it would solve all the problems if we put in the 3-stage system so I don't see the point of trying anything more cumbersome.


I think a percentage based system like enkelin proposed would be more functional, with certain torps being more efficient (class-locked ones having higher percentage for the duration of the tracking phase or something similar).

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Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:18 am
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Post Re: Issues with torpedoes
Class locked items, according to Blue Dwarf, does nothing to the stats atm. All it does is limit who uses them.

Was quite upset when Blue Dwarf told me.

Just correcting your statement, Biggee.

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Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:08 am
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Post Re: Issues with torpedoes
Battlecruiser23 wrote:
Class locked items, according to Blue Dwarf, does nothing to the stats atm. All it does is limit who uses them.

Was quite upset when Blue Dwarf told me.

Just correcting your statement, Biggee.


That's part of the point I was making, as class-locked should be better than equivalent non-locked.

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Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:44 am
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Post Re: Issues with torpedoes
Yes. I agree.

All class locked items, mission reward items, and ruin items, should(no mods) be better than their non-allofwhatisaid counterparts.

To prevent the ideal of "Leveling up to use higher tech gear that the balance sheets makes much better than the gear that take effort to get through missions, builds, and ruins".

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Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:58 am
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Post Re: Issues with torpedoes
I think everyone was under the impression that class-locked gear received a boost in the balance sheets. Makes sense to me anyway.

Back on topic: 3-stage system for torps. Make the middle tracking stage a percent of the entire range, maybe with a hard cap, maybe variable based on the quality of the weapon.

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Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:10 pm
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Post Re: Issues with torpedoes
I really don't think there's anything wrong, conceptually, with the current 3-stage tracking system. overall, on zerkers, the tracking works quite reasonably. I suspect however that the tracking bonuses for snipers and AI, and perhaps certain weapons (read: ZHT), were over-exaggerated to compensate for the previously mysterious difficulties in using torpedoes in short or mid range.

One change that would definitely balance the tracking over the short range would be killing the pre-burn tracking, so that the torpedoes initially go straight out from where the shooter was pointing at launch time. This would make it much easier for SDs to avoid the projectiles at short range, because moving halfway around the target in between launch and burn would cause the projectiles to go in a wide arc that likely wouldnt result in a hit.

Alternatively, because that may be a bit extreme, could we put a fractional tracking on torpedoes pre-burn, so that they turn at maybe one-sixth rate of burn tracking so that they do track a little before the burn, but not enough to fully track an SD?

tl;dr I think the only problems with the current 3-stage system are the initial tracking and possibly overcompensated balancing on tracking previous to this change.

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Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:05 pm
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Post Re: Issues with torpedoes
Zekk wrote:
I really don't think there's anything wrong, conceptually, with the current 3-stage tracking system. overall, on zerkers, the tracking works quite reasonably. I suspect however that the tracking bonuses for snipers and AI, and perhaps certain weapons (read: ZHT), were over-exaggerated to compensate for the previously mysterious difficulties in using torpedoes in short or mid range.

One change that would definitely balance the tracking over the short range would be killing the pre-burn tracking, so that the torpedoes initially go straight out from where the shooter was pointing at launch time. This would make it much easier for SDs to avoid the projectiles at short range, because moving halfway around the target in between launch and burn would cause the projectiles to go in a wide arc that likely wouldnt result in a hit.

Alternatively, because that may be a bit extreme, could we put a fractional tracking on torpedoes pre-burn, so that they turn at maybe one-sixth rate of burn tracking so that they do track a little before the burn, but not enough to fully track an SD?

tl;dr I think the only problems with the current 3-stage system are the initial tracking and possibly overcompensated balancing on tracking previous to this change.


AI Zebras have little to no pre-burn tracking. It's still a major inconvenience when fighting at close range to have the projectiles track you from the start, although I'm sure it's much worse against a Sniper player. So no, it wouldn't be extreme to kill it since it's not really there in the main case I have been highlighting: UZ Zebras. In fact, it wouldn't even suffice.

I don't recall having any great difficulties using torpedo weapons in the short- or middle-range on Sniper or Zerk before the change. Dark Fists and MTs were used by Zerkers for years and no one complained.

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Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:28 pm
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Post Re: Issues with torpedoes
I disagree that things were never broken, it used to be a trivial matter to dodge torps at short range. I do however agree that the current system is flawed. I suggest some combination of the following factors:

0) Eliminate or gimp pre-burn tracking
1) reduce burn time to a smaller proportion of range. atm it seems to be 100%
2) reduce tracking on all torpedo weapons by a small amount
3) reduce tracking bonus on sniper by a medium amount

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