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[content] Ares Black Stallions / rework of engine weight
http://www.starsonata.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=103&t=48032		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  anilv [ Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:48 pm ]
Post subject:  [content] Ares Black Stallions / rework of engine weight
I have calculated and compared the weight-to-thrust ratios for a ship using various engines, for some typical Speed Demon kit weights. I have also included the relevant stats of these engines for reference. (Here MFC = Mzungu Flying Contrast, Emp = Emperor's Propulsor, ABS = Ares Black Stallions, and CAWH = Charging Ares War Horses.)

Given 2.5mil weight without engine:
MFC / ABS: 1.449
MFC / CAWH: 1.191
Emp / ABS: 1.128
Emp / CAWH: 0.927

Given 2mil weight without engine:
MFC / ABS: 1.525
MFC / CAWH: 1.199
Emp / ABS: 1.182
Emp / CAWH: 0.930

Given 1.5mil weight without engine:
MFC / ABS: 1.646
MFC / CAWH: 1.212
Emp / ABS: 1.268
Emp / CAWH: 0.934

I feel that it's a reasonable expectation that a higher tier engine should not result in worse handling than a lower tier engine. If we wanted the same handling from both Charging Ares War Horses and Ares Black Stallions in the given weight range, the Ares Black Stallions would need to have its thrust stat increased or weight stat decreased. Keeping its weight fixed, here are the thrust values necessary to make its handling identical to the lower tier engine, based on the weight of the ship intended to use it (the numbers are very close for both MFC and Emp cases).

2.5mil weight without engine
Thrust 14840 (22% more)

2mil weight without engine
Thrust 15520 (27% more)

1.5mil weight without engine
Thrust 16570 (36% more)

On the other hand, the relatively low vis on Ares Black Stallions could be raised to match the rest of the line, hopefully boosting the handling on the engine as above. At any rate, something is off in the balance formulas if you upgrade an engine to the highest tier and lose out on a big chunk of effective thrust.

--

Mzungu Flying Contrast (easy to get modded)
Size 62
Thrust 13500
Weight 236,000
Vis 396

Emperor's Propulsor (somewhat hard to get modded)
Size 26
Thrust 10700
Weight 286,000
Speed +11%, Turning +4%
Vis 219

Charging Ares War Horses (hard to get modded)
Size 37
Thrust 11700
Weight 324,000
Damage +6%
Vis 90

Ares Black Stallions (nearly impossible to get modded)
Size 59
Thrust 12200
Weight 1,082,000
Speed +6%, Damage +6%
Vis 30
Author:  ashta1989 [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ares Black Stallions / rework treatment of engine weight
thats a fucking retarded weight...
Author:  Javatech [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ares Black Stallions / rework treatment of engine weight
Sorry, I understood pretty much none of what you said, but I am always for weight reductions.
Author:  kilua [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ares Black Stallions / rework treatment of engine weight
Double you tea if m8 .. 1 million weight on an engine made for LFs is ABSURD!
Author:  anilv [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ares Black Stallions / rework treatment of engine weight
kilua wrote:
Double you tea if m8 .. 1 million weight on an engine made for LFs is ABSURD!


For those who couldn't make it through the math, I have essentially quantified this claim to show just how absurd it is.

I should also point out that while the Ares Black Stallions gives some really nice inbuilt bonuses, the basic tenet that a higher tier engine should not handle worse than a lower tier engine has been pretty well violated. I would think that most people agree that that shouldn't happen.
Author:  sabre198 [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ares Black Stallions / rework treatment of engine weight
those bonuses are on base stats tho like all inbuilts = bullshit

therefore it should be made a useful engine through stats
Author:  anilv [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ares Black Stallions / rework treatment of engine weight
sabre198 wrote:
those bonuses are on base stats tho like all inbuilts = bullshit

therefore it should be made a useful engine through stats


I have specifically made this not about the weight of the inbuilts. The argument is that no matter how much weight those are given in the balance sheets, something has gone wrong to make this engine give so much worse handling than the lower tier version on any ship that might want to use it.
Author:  anilv [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ares Black Stallions / rework treatment of engine weight
Bump.
Author:  biggee531 [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ares Black Stallions / rework treatment of engine weight
Damage and speed are pretty heavy in terms of balance, while weight is lighter. Maybe drop the speed bonus to 3% to reduce the weight by a marginal amount?

Either that, or try them both at 4%.
Author:  anilv [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ares Black Stallions / rework treatment of engine weight
biggee531 wrote:
Damage and speed are pretty heavy in terms of balance, while weight is lighter. Maybe drop the speed bonus to 3% to reduce the weight by a marginal amount?

Either that, or try them both at 4%.


The point I'm trying to make is that regardless of the weight of the inbuilts, the balance sheets may not be computing the proper effective thrust of the engine if they haven't been told that it's to be used by a light-weight ship. I don't know the formula of course, but I would be surprised if they do take this into account since we have a tier 3 engine that gives over 20% worse handling than its tier 2 version.
Author:  kilua [ Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ares Black Stallions / rework treatment of engine weight
i think those balance sheets "even tho i have no idea what those are, only thing i know they make us consumers not happy" .. should be re-worked..
Author:  Blue Dwarf [ Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ares Black Stallions / rework treatment of engine weight
So, you want the weight reduced or the turn/thrust increased?
Author:  anilv [ Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ares Black Stallions / rework treatment of engine weight
Blue Dwarf wrote:
So, you want the weight reduced or the turn/thrust increased?


I don't care at all about the turning stat. Any SD using /maxturn 10000 will spin like a top. That's another issue for the balance sheets by the way, but not one I was going to emphasize in this thread.

But yes, I want the engine to have a greater effective thrust, which would mean having the weight reduced and/or the thrust increased to the point that it performs at least as well as Charging Ares War Horses on a ship of around 2 million weight. I've given its current performance numbers and roughly how much thrust it would need if the weight is not reduced. I think it would even be fair for the player base to expect better handling from a higher tier engine, but OK.

The reason I didn't just post "improve its effective thrust because it's shitty right now" is that even if a dev were convinced that I'm right, they'd likely nerf the inbuilts and call it good. I rather like the inbuilts and I think Jeff does too (he remarked many months ago that this engine is supposed to be amazing), yet there's no way to make use of them without imitating a space dumpster. My conviction is that the engine deserves a straight beef to effective thrust in the eyes of the balance sheet, with justification that the formula for balancing it is incorrect.
Author:  Blue Dwarf [ Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ares Black Stallions / rework treatment of engine weight
How about I change the turn/thrust ratio (or thrust/turn, can't remember which way round).

That way it'll gain some thrust for loss of turning?
Author:  anilv [ Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ares Black Stallions / rework treatment of engine weight
Blue Dwarf wrote:
How about I change the turn/thrust ratio (or thrust/turn, can't remember which way round).

That way, it'll stay the same, except it'll gain some thrust for loss of turning?


OK, that could only help matters. You could also look at increasing the visibility of the engine (if I recall, having relatively low visibility hits the handling pretty hard).

I appreciate the feedback and look forward to seeing what you come up with.
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